37 replies to this topic

[The Joker]

Weapon loadouts for the Resistance team. I know some people thought of it as a "Oh, let's do a Call of Duty thing!"

No, I feel weapon loadouts would drastically help toward the pressing issue of balancing Overwatch. And this is my argument on why if we had a loadout, many changes to gameplay would come, changes I see for the better.

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First off, in order to build your loadout for the current level, the warm-up period should be extended to something like 30 seconds. This would also fix the issue of the GM not having enough time to prepare for the Resistance assault.

I say that we give the Rebels four slots in their loadout.

• Primary Weapon
  
• Secondary Weapon
  
• Melee Weapon/Class-Specific Weapon
  
• Equipment

In each category(besides the "Equipment" category) you can only hold one weapon. They are available as follows:

• Primary Weapons - SMG1, Shotgun, *Crossbow, *RPG
  
• Secondary Weapon - USP 9mm Pistol, .357 Magnum
  
• Melee/Class Specific Weapon - Crowbar, Stunstick, Riot Shield with no melee weapon, Medkit
  
• Equipment - M83 Fragmentation Grenade(x2), ^Gravity Gun, Bugbait

*The crossbow and RPG are not core weapons, this is up for debate.

^If you choose to select the Gravity Gun instead of grenades for your equipment category, you can NOT hold or collect grenades until the next round where you can change your loadout.

The reason to have each category and their selectable weapons is to change up the gameplay and ask more from team-oriented gameplay and to make more use of the weapons and situations at hand. For close quarters situations, players would pick shotguns and such. For other circumstances, players would pick the standard-issue SMG1. This means that because of the varied loadouts of all the team players, the players themselves would require more from the soldier with the right layout for the right situation, thus requiring more team-oriented gameplay.

As for the unique "Class" weapons (the medkit and riot shield) these would also be come into question with the loadout system. Players will either choose to have a standard-issue melee weapon, or they choose to remove their melee weapon for either a Riot shield or a medkit. Removing the melee weapon will have players debate more thoroughly what is needed for the current mission and situation. If all players would pick a riot shield, no one could be healed among the team, yet they gain defensive versatility. If everyone picks a medkit, they are able to keep eachother healed, yet suffer a melee capability. This brings into question that with a loadout system, players would absolutely be more versatile, strategic, and team-oriented about the weapons they choose for the mission, situation, and circumstance at hand.

As for the .357 Magnum as a sidearm, you can think of the downfall of having this weapon equipped: Its reduced accuracy at longer ranges, longer reload time, slower firing speed, and only 3 full magazines. There are all compared to the USP 9mm Pistol. But its power, with the ability to kill Overwatch soldiers, zombies etc. in about 2 direct hits is the crossover. I think it sounds balanced.

Thoughts? Comments? Questions?

[WAXT]

This is exactly what I mean by a weapon-slot system. Thank you Joker.

[The Joker]

WAXT, on 14 July 2011 - 12:46 AM, said:

This is exactly what I mean by a weapon-slot system. Thank you Joker.

Thank you. I thought long and hard about this, and I feel I got it! And AndY seems to like it too

[rickinator9]

I am assuming the riot shield is the riotshield without the crowbar? I also find the medkit better in the grenade category, so medics can't partake in 'destroy generator' objectives, thus making them more focused on the job they can do.

This system looks great, as it increases teamwork.

[The Joker]

rickinator9, on 14 July 2011 - 05:53 AM, said:

I am assuming the riot shield is the riotshield without the crowbar? I also find the medkit better in the grenade category, so medics can't partake in 'destroy generator' objectives, thus making them more focused on the job they can do.

This system looks great, as it increases teamwork.

The crowbar along with the riot shield could go one of two ways, I believe removing the crowbar would be better. The medkit in the grenade category would be a bit off though, that would make it so a medic couldn't partake in "destroy with grenade" objectives, yet they have a melee weapon along with their medkit.

[warbrand2]

I like this. It would work with the class system as players can use the preset ones taht are currently here. Also this would make adding weapons to OW easyer (I think) as the devs will not have to place them on the map.

[ScrooLewse]

Maybe as something you could choose to put in a map. There are maps coming out like Outbreak that incorporate collecting weapons as you go.

Also, a full list of weapons arranged how I personally believe they should go.

Primary
SMG
Shotgun

Secondary
USP Match
.357 Magnum (Modified)

Roles
Crowbar
Riot Shield (With no melee)
Medkit
Bugbait (For certain maps)

Equipment
3 Grenades
RPG with 1 Missile
Crossbow
Gravity Gun (Modified)

If course, the mapper could change these settings to fit his map. Remove something, add something, move something to a different category...

[The Joker]

ScrooLewse, on 14 July 2011 - 07:28 PM, said:

Maybe as something you could choose to put in a map. There are maps coming out like Outbreak that incorporate collecting weapons as you go.

Also, a full list of weapons arranged how I personally believe they should go.

Primary
SMG
Shotgun

Secondary
USP Match
.357 Magnum (Modified)

Roles
Crowbar
Riot Shield (With no melee)
Medkit
Bugbait (For certain maps)

Equipment
3 Grenades
RPG with 1 Missile
Crossbow
Gravity Gun (Modified)

If course, the mapper could change these settings to fit his map. Remove something, add something, move something to a different category...

Maybe for very specific maps the loadout system could be disabled. And that would done on the coding side, and not by the level designer.
As for the new weapons you mentioned, here are my thoughts:

Bugbait - There is no appropriate map and situation to use it as of right now. And its not even coded a HL2 multiplayer weapon.

RPG and Crossbow - These are more of primary weapons then anything, giving a player the ability to have three weapons is a bit overpowering, and killing the point of including a loadout system.

.357 Magnum - I was actually thinking of including this, but was trying to figure out more or less how it balances out with a standard USP 9mm Pistol. In a few ways, its accuracy, long reload time, slower firing speed, and only 3 full magazines make it a secondary weapon, but its power is something to think about.

Gravity Gun - I actually agree with having this in the equipment section. Would be nice to see. And by the way, only 2 fragmentation grenades would be balanced, any more than 2 is making the player into a damn demolitionist.

Riot Shield with no melee weapon - I also fully agree to remove the melee weapon along with the riot shield. I say just have the riot shield. So, for the cost of no melee weapon, the player can take on a role and class-specific weapon. Sounds balanced in my opinion.

[WAXT]

It's good to see the Ideas and Suggestions flowing once more!

If I may offer my opinion, I do not believe your proposed system will work ScrooLewse. You are on the right track however. According to the list provided above, players can come equipped with a shotgun, .357 magnum, medkit and a RPG launcher. That does seem a little excessive, wouldn't you agree? I think a better solution would be to mix role items into the four categories (Primary, Secondary, Melee & Miscellaneous) rather than having a slot specifically for role items.

For example,

• Primary: SMG, Shotgun, Crossbow or RPG.
  
• Secondary: Pistol (USP) or .357 Magnum.
  
• Melee: Crowbar, Stunstick or Riot Shield.
  
• Miscellaneous: Grenades, Medkit, Gravity Gun or Bugbait.

(Items highlighted in blue are role items. Only one role item may be equipped at a time.)

Using this system, players are unable to overload on weaponry as their choices become severely limited once they pick up a role item. This list obviously isn't limited to the items above but the system does allow room for more general weaponry or role items to be added. (If you can see an overpowered weapon combination, please mention it below.)

[The Joker]

WAXT, on 14 July 2011 - 09:54 PM, said:

It's good to see the Ideas and Suggestions flowing once more!

If I may offer my opinion, I do not believe your proposed system will work ScrooLewse. You are on the right track however. According to the list provided above, players can come equipped with a shotgun, .357 magnum, medkit and a RPG launcher. That does seem a little excessive, wouldn't you agree? I think a better solution would be to mix role items into the four categories (Primary, Secondary, Melee & Miscellaneous) rather than having a slot specifically for role items.

For example,

• Primary: SMG, Shotgun, Crossbow or RPG.
• Secondary: Pistol (USP) or .357 Magnum.
• Melee: Crowbar, Stunstick or Riot Shield.
• Miscellaneous: Grenades, Medkit, Gravity Gun or Bugbait.

(Items highlighted in blue are role items. Only one role item may be equipped at a time.)

Using this system, players are unable to overload on weaponry as their choices become severely limited once they pick up a role item. This list obviously isn't limited to the items above but the system does allow room for more general weaponry or role items to be added. (If you can see an overpowered weapon combination, please mention it below.)

The reason the role weapons are included in the melee weapon category is to balance out the fact that you can either have a role specific weapon but no melee weapon or a melee weapon with no role weapon. Having two separate slots eliminates this balance.

Well, the .357 can't exactly be called a role item. The bugbait also hasn't been implemented, and its unlikely that it will be anyway. I do also disagree about moving the medkit to the "Equipment' category, it just doesn't belong there and wouldn't have the proper effect that the loadout is hoping to achieve, which is a keen sense of balance in weaponry.

The loadout and its options are as follows, for now anyhow:

• Primary Weapons - SMG1, Shotgun, Crossbow, RPG
  
• Secondary Weapon - USP 9mm Pistol, .357 Magnum
  
• Melee/Class Specific Weapon - Crowbar, Stunstick, *Riot Shield with no melee weapon, *Medkit
  
• Equipment - M83 Fragmentation Grenade(x2), ^Gravity Gun

*Represents class-specific weapons, such as the only two in-game as of right now, the Defender and Medic

^Also note, that since the equipment category has the option to equip a Gravity Gun, you will no longer be able to equip grenades what-so-ever until the next round.

[warbrand2]

Some old wep suggestions of mien that might have a place here.. if not I tried. (keep in mined these ideas are old)
HACK tool

random weapon suggestions

[The Joker]

warbrand2, on 14 July 2011 - 11:49 PM, said:

Some old wep suggestions of mien that might have a place here.. if not I tried. (keep in mined these ideas are old)
HACK tool

random weapon suggestions

I am only suggesting weapons into the loadout system that have been proven to be in Overwatch. Those weapons have no place. Sorry.

[WAXT]

Joker, you haven't really made many changes from the system I proposed.

All you're really saying is that the Medic should be able to equip grenades and not a crowbar. In my opinion, and correct me if I'm wrong, the grenade is a much more powerful weapon/item than the crowbar. If anything, you are just allowing the Medic to be more of an active combatant than a medic.

You also haven't factored in for new Roles which may or may not be present in future Overwatch releases. Let us assume the Crossbow or RPG becomes a new role item. Your system suggests a player may equip a Crossbow/RPG (which has now been moved into the "Roles" category) and a primary weapon such as a shotgun or SMG, whereas mine does not. My system also allows for new items to be added (such as Bugbait or WarBrand's "HackTool") as items are categorised by type, not whether or not they are a role item.

[The Joker]

WAXT, on 15 July 2011 - 11:28 PM, said:

Joker, you haven't really made many changes from the system I proposed.

All you're really saying is that the Medic should be able to equip grenades and not a crowbar. In my opinion, and correct me if I'm wrong, the grenade is a much more powerful weapon/item than the crowbar. If anything, you are just allowing the Medic to be more of an active combatant than a medic.

You also haven't factored in for new Roles which may or may not be present in future Overwatch releases. Let us assume the Crossbow or RPG becomes a new role item. Your system suggests a player may equip a Crossbow/RPG (which has now been moved into the "Roles" category) and a primary weapon such as a shotgun or SMG, whereas mine does not. My system also allows for new items to be added (such as Bugbait or WarBrand's "HackTool") as items are categorised by type, not whether or not they are a role item.

You must be confuzzled WAXT.

I have made no such changes that allow the Crossbow/RPG to be in the Melee/Class-Specific Weapon category. They remain primary weapons, as seen from the 1st post(which is being updated)and the update below. And with the inclusion of bugbait, this is how the loadout system stands:

• Primary Weapons - SMG1, Shotgun, Crossbow, RPG
  
• Secondary Weapon - USP 9mm Pistol, .357 Magnum
  
• Melee/Class Specific Weapon - Crowbar, Stunstick, *Riot Shield with no melee weapon, *Medkit
  
• Equipment - M83 Fragmentation Grenade(x2), ^Gravity Gun, Bugbait

As for the "Medkit" being in the "Melee/Class-Specific Weapon" category, allowing the medic to have a medkit and grenades isn't that bad. But remember, the medic is always going to be healing people, and will be in close quarters probably half the time, depending on the map. Without a crowbar or stunstick, the medic must rely on other players for support, as you can't use grenades in close quarters battle nor do you have a melee weapon. That would also bring it question the medic selecting either an SMG1 or Shotgun.

[WAXT]

WAXT said:

Let us assume the Crossbow or RPG becomes a new role item. Your system suggests a player may equip a Crossbow/RPG (which has now been moved into the "Roles" category) and a primary weapon such as a shotgun or SMG, whereas mine does not.

The Joker said:

I have made no such changes that allow the Crossbow/RPG to be in the Melee/Class-Specific Weapon category. They remain primary weapons, as seen from the 1st post(which is being updated)and the update below.

Your system uses a weapon-slot specifically for melee and role items. Assuming the crossbow or RPG becomes a role item, they would then be moved into the role item category, correct? Your system would now be as follows:

• Primary Weapons - SMG1, Shotgun
  
• Secondary Weapon - USP 9mm Pistol, .357 Magnum
  
• Melee/Class Specific Weapon - Crowbar, Stunstick, *Riot Shield with no melee weapon, *Medkit, Crossbow, RPG
  
• Equipment - M83 Fragmentation Grenade(x2), ^Gravity Gun, Bugbait

This implies a player may equip a primary weapon (SMG or Shotgun), secondary weapon, melee/class specific weapon (Crossbow or RPG) and an equipment item. Also note, that regardless of whether the crossbow or RPG become role items, my system does not allow for this.

The Joker said:

Without a crowbar or stunstick, the medic must rely on other players for support, as you can't use grenades in close quarters battle nor do you have a melee weapon.

I understand your reasoning, however I agree with rickinator.

If Medics are equipped with grenades they are likely to be distracted by "Destroy the Generator" objectives and neglect their healing duties. Allowing the Medic to wield a melee item (such as a crowbar) does not turn them into an unstoppable force. (Let's be honest, who uses the crowbar unless absolutely neccessary?) The medic would dispatch of enemies using their primary weapon, secondary weapon or grenades long before they consider using a melee item (even in close-quarters). If you want the Medic to rely on others for protection then the primary weapon should be replaced with the medkit. -Something my system allows for but yours does not.

(Lastly, all players should have a melee item equipped anyway, just in case they run out of ammo. Without it they would be defenceless.)

[The Joker]

WAXT, on 16 July 2011 - 10:43 PM, said:

Your system uses a weapon-slot specifically for melee and role items. Assuming the crossbow or RPG becomes a role item, they would then be moved into the role item category, correct? Your system would now be as follows:

• Primary Weapons - SMG1, Shotgun
• Secondary Weapon - USP 9mm Pistol, .357 Magnum
• Melee/Class Specific Weapon - Crowbar, Stunstick, *Riot Shield with no melee weapon, *Medkit, Crossbow, RPG
• Equipment - M83 Fragmentation Grenade(x2), ^Gravity Gun, Bugbait

This implies a player may equip a primary weapon (SMG or Shotgun), secondary weapon, melee/class specific weapon (Crossbow or RPG) and an equipment item. Also note, that regardless of whether the crossbow or RPG become role items, my system does not allow for this.


I understand your reasoning, however I agree with rickinator.

If Medics are equipped with grenades they are likely to be distracted by "Destroy the Generator" objectives and neglect their healing duties. Allowing the Medic to wield a melee item (such as a crowbar) does not turn them into an unstoppable force. (Let's be honest, who uses the crowbar unless absolutely neccessary?) The medic would dispatch of enemies using their primary weapon, secondary weapon or grenades long before they consider using a melee item (even in close-quarters). If you want the Medic to rely on others for protection then the primary weapon should be replaced with the medkit. -Something my system allows for but yours does not.

(Lastly, all players should have a melee item equipped anyway, just in case they run out of ammo. Without it they would be defenceless.)

Now your getting out of bounds on what this system is for. Its not for your customization, its for balance. Even then, this system would need to be tested in the field before an accurate saying and rating can be put on any of these guns.

But as you have said, the Crossbow and RPG are not role items as of right now, and are primary weapons. With the implementation of them into ow_canals, we can assume they won't be role items, but rather situation-specific heavy weapons.

[WAXT]

The Joker, on 17 July 2011 - 01:47 AM, said:

Its not for your customization, its for balance. Even then, this system would need to be tested in the field before an accurate saying and rating can be put on any of these guns.

You're quite right, and I have made no attempt to customise it to my benefit. Other community members are more than welcome to suggest their own loadouts/system or request a modification of my own should they notice any flaws/imbalances. Again, I agree; all systems will need to be thoroughly tested and modified if needed. I don't disagree with you Joker, I just think that your system has an obvious flaw where mine does not. (That's not to say my system isn't flawed either.)

The problem I have with your design is that Role Items are restricted to a specific weapon-slot. I don't feel this is suitable as role items can consist of many different items ranging from primary weapons to equipment/miscellaneous items. For this reason, I feel it is better to spread the role items throughout all weapon-slots to better balance possible loadouts. I have no problem with a medic coming equipped with hand grenades if that better balances the game, however I would be much happier if you would adopt the system I have proposed. (Feel free to modify the loadouts as you see fit.)

For example,

• Primary: SMG, Shotgun, Crossbow or RPG.
  
• Secondary: Pistol (USP) or .357 Magnum.
  
• Melee/Other: Crowbar, Stunstick, Riot Shield or Medkit.
  
• Miscellaneous: Grenades, Gravity Gun or Bugbait.

This loadout prevents the Medic from equipping a melee item. Grenades may be equipped by all players, including the Medic, but excludes those using the non-existent "GravityGun" and "Bugbait" roles.

OR

• Primary: SMG, Shotgun, Crossbow, RPG or Medkit.
  
• Secondary: Pistol (USP) or .357 Magnum.
  
• Melee: Crowbar, Stunstick or Riot Shield.
  
• Miscellaneous: Grenades, Gravity Gun or Bugbait.

This loadout prevents the Medic from equipping a primary weapon/item. Wielding only a pistol, crowbar and carrying two grenades, the medic must rely heavily upon others for protection.

(Items highlighted in blue are possible role items. Note: Only one role item may be equipped at a time.)

Apologies if you feel I am coming on too strong or if I appear rather arrogant. (It is often difficult to decipher tones/emotions when reading text.) I'm not trying to argue with you, I'm merely trying to prove the inconsistencies within your design. I appreciate your understanding.

[rickinator9]

I do approve of WAXT's plan, as it would really make the medic focus more on the healing instead of the hurting. I have seen more bad medic than I desire. But the medic as a role still needs some tweaking.

[Quenquent]

I've didn't talk yet here and I completely disagree with most of your ideas. I mean, the loadout system is exellent, but the organisation is wrong.

First, you all want to make the choice between a weapon and a melee weapon......So if I'm out of ammo, I'm screwed ? Because I can't defend myself unless I've found ammo (which could be between a lot of combines...) This will change the strategy of the Overwatch : put every units around the ammo pack so the Rebels can't kill his units and grab ammo....This seriously suck !

The Joker, did you suggested that we can't change loadout during a round ? If yes, that mean if everyone don't choose a RPG, they are all fucked up against the chopper in ow_canals ? If I fall in a room with a lot of SMG and SMG's ammo I can't take it because I got an empty shotgun ? We can't complete the objective "Destroy the Generator" because everyone take a gravity gun ? Did you think about all of this ?

You suggested to make the Crossbow and the RPG as a primary weapon....so if I'm against a lot of enemies (Crossbow) or if my ennemies are close to me (RPG), I only have a shitty pistol (or a magnum) and a crowbar to defend myself ?

Do you all think that grenades are so overpowered ? Personally, I only see grenades in ow_breach and this is for an objective ; I only use this grenades for this objective. The rare times I use grenades, I miss my target (yeah, I suck ) or the combines run away from it and less than 1/5 of them die... If you really want to balance them reduce the blast of the explosion or add more time between the drop and the explosion of the grenade or reduce the number of grenades we can carry.

TL:DR :

My idea is :
Primary : SMG, Shotgun
Secondary : Pistol, Magnum
Melee : Crowbar, Stunstick
Role : Medkit, Shield (without the melee if you want), RPG, Crossbow, Gravity gun
Grenade : Grenade (x2 max if you want)

Note : maybe we can add the Shield as a melee item, but we can use a melee attack with it (knockback the combines with the Shield) AND we can't pick up and other role item.

[rickinator9]

I don't agree with your proposal of having the rpg and the crossbow in the role slot, because I think they will phase out the shield. Also, I do not think the magnum should be in the secondary slot as it is much better than the pistol.