12 replies to this topic

[Colaman]

This idea was a time ago partially mentioned by Andy in a big thread. (See the big thread for small suggestion, I think)
I think this idea has more potential and is more than just a small suggestion.

In this moment there is no fog of war in OW. The Overwatch can really see everything. Every rebel tactic can be recognized early and this is not realistic. The minimap is also only available per consol commands.
Now imagine we would restrict the view of the overwatch. It can still see the whole map (the Overwatch knows the city which has to be overseen, of course) but not enemy units (maybe props, too?). Only the units it can control got line of sight and let the fog of war dissappear around or in the direction they look. Two units would really make sense: city scanners and cameras (as trap based on maps) which would be a mobile and a stationary opportunity to uncover the FoW. If it is not too complicated, I suggest to uncover only the area which the unit can really see. Hence there is a fog of war behind and near the unit.
Sounds too difficult for the Overwatch? I had also the idea to add noise detectors for the minimap like in Crysis. When there is loud noise like gunfire or explosives there will be a growing circle around the location of the noise on minimap.

Detected rebels could be red dots on the minimap. On the first contact a voice could tell you: "First encounter with rebels." Pressing space bar could jump to the last detection of a rebel.

This would really change the gameplay, for both sides. The Overwatch would have to scout with units and to monitor important areas using units. On the other side the rebels would have the opportunity to use sneaky tactics. More options, more atmosphere, more fun. :-)

[A1win]

Fog of war should hide every entity that can be potentially moved (such as doors, destroyable walls, etc.) because otherwise the Overwatch could see what the players are doing by looking at the moving entities. I don't think the GM should worry about players sneaking unseen behind his units — he should be able to see them. Otherwise it'd make it too difficult for him to position his troops so that they can see into every direction. The units themseleves still might not need to be able to react to enemies behind them, but at least the GM himself should be able to see them clearly.

[WAXT]

Sorry if i repeat what has already been said -i'm not sure i fully understand what has been suggested (shut up, i'm tired alright)

So basically, there's the minimap for the Overwatch.
What is being suggested is that only enemy players (the rebels) that are in sight of Overwatch units such as troops or cityscanners appear on the minimap (like the Counter-Strike radar/minimap). Resistance members that are not in the sight of enemy units (ie, hiding) must be found manually by the Overwatch himself/herself?

I think this is a good idea even though it does borrow from CS a small bit.

[Colaman]

WAXT, on 12 August 2010 - 02:52 AM, said:

Sorry if i repeat what has already been said -i'm not sure i fully understand what has been suggested (shut up, i'm tired alright)

So basically, there's the minimap for the Overwatch.
What is being suggested is that only enemy players (the rebels) that are in sight of Overwatch units such as troops or cityscanners appear on the minimap (like the Counter-Strike radar/minimap). Resistance members that are not in the sight of enemy units (ie, hiding) must be found manually by the Overwatch himself/herself?

I think this is a good idea even though it does borrow from CS a small bit.

Currently the overwatch is a kind of noclipping spectator. He can fly over the map and see everything even if there is no combine unit near it. It's like god and a bit unrealistic. This should be changed.

[Auxor]

I believe the option should be enabled, but not enforced. I personally sometimes like how the OW has complete total knowledge of everything thats happening, it just makes him more fun to play and allows him to know how to hit the rebels hardest. If there was fog of war, the OW would spend too much time trying to find the rebels to do any tactics.

Now if there were large maps with more traditional RTS gameplay as opposed to the sort of Left 4 Dead style run and gun level Breach, FOW would do nicely.

[WAXT]

Colaman, on 12 August 2010 - 03:40 AM, said:

Currently the overwatch is a kind of noclipping spectator. He can fly over the map and see everything even if there is no combine unit near it. It's like god and a bit unrealistic. This should be changed.

oh i get it. so like a pure RTS game; you have to have units nearby to see the enemy troops. i don't really think that's a good idea. i agree with Auxor -the OW would spend far too much time trying to locate the rebels. Can't we just pretend he has super powerful satellite in orbit or something? I don't think the minimap idea is too bad though; kind of a work-around to meet this idea halfway.

[braddollar]

I having the ability for the map maker or server to enable or disable it would be good. i've got an idea for a map that would work a lot better with FoW.

[PixilatedPunk]

Well post that idea up braddollar!

[Shadowmetroid]

Personally, I would like the addition of a FOW feature, along with the addition of scouting units, like cameras and scanners, which would, theoretically, have a large field of view.
Currently, I am one of those players who find The Overwatch's side to be very easy. Remember, that while the Combine are very oppressive and nearly always present in HL2, they are still not God.
Remember again in HL2, after the failed teleportation, the Overwatch's first actual intel of your whereabouts came from a scanner.
The Combine, like ANY other force, needs scouts to find the resistance.

[Colaman]

Good so far. Minimap is implemented, maps are more complex and overwatch is still too easy. Any plans for 1.3.0 concerning fog of war? :->

[warbrand2]

Just thinking but the combine do have cameras lots of them. Why not add Fog of war to the maps and give the GM cameras placed to show the hole map as the GM loses ground he/she will also lose sight in the battle field with out cameras not real time info gets in ans with out real time info the GM can't effectively send units to an area.

The cameras (same one as you see at the beginning of hl2) will have health an can be repaired by metro cops. some cameras could be upgrades to be turrets(trap.)

[A1win]

We have been thinking about fog of war quite a bit, in fact it was one of the first features we started discussing over a year ago at the beginning of the mod's development. There are still a lot of unanswered questions about it that we can't seem to piece together just by discussing and planning, so the best approach would seem to be just trying it out and seeing how it feels. However, doing so would take more development and testing time than we'd like to sacrifice at this point, so it's still going to take a while.

Our biggest concern is how the fast pace of the game would work with fog of war. True, it's a very important aspect of the RTS scheme, but then again, RTS games are way slower paced than Overwatch is. The Resistance players move fast in this mod, a lot faster than the units in RTS games do, and that could become very annoying for the Overwatch player. Just imagine if the units in an RTS game moved five times as fast as they normally do — they'd be able to attack the enemy before he'd have enough time to prepare for it, and the gameplay would become very random. In Overwatch, it wouldn't even be the same for both teams, as only the GM (the "Game Master", the Overwatch player) would suffer from its effects while the rebels would be free to abuse it as much as they could. They could keep hiding behind corners or even small obstacles, and be all over the map without the GM being able to keep track of them.

On the other hand, there's been some discussion about making the rebels "fade out" into the fog of war over a period of time, let's say ten seconds, instead of just disappearing into it instantly. Each rebel could be shown a "you are being detected by the Overwatch" symbol on his HUD while he's out of the fog of war, and then shown a small progress bar that shows him the time after which he stops being detected. This way, the fog of war wouldn't be too annoying for the Overwatch since the rebels wouldn't be blinking in and out of sight all the time, but would still give the benefit of stealth for the Resistance team.

As you can see, this issue is a bit more complicated than it'd seem like at first, since it's such a simple feature in a normal RTS game. Again, we are very interested in trying fog of war out, but it will take time to get it done right, and we still have much more important gameplay features to take care of first.

[Colaman]

Thanks for this extensive answer, A1win.

I appreciate the fading-out-idea. This wouldn't be such annoying for the overwatch like when the rebels just vanish in the dark.

But anyway, it's just speculation. The gameplay could become slower, more random or more complicated or maybe all three things. It would depend of the type of fog of war you add (line of sight or just circle around a unit), amount and price of city scanners/cameras and so on.

Maybe there is a time in the later development to test this feature.