19 replies to this topic

[elite879]

Firstly I want to say I decided to make this a seperate topic because of two things. 1. I don't really think it's a "small suggestion" (Just my opinion) and 2. It might get overlooked in the other thread.
Anyway, let's start.

So has anyone ever heard of the game "Soldiers: Heroes of World War II"? Well you have now.

This is a multi award winning RTS made by a Russian company. It's an old game so I doubt anyone's heard of it really. Then there's the better known sequal to this game "Men of War" Which is just as succesful.


Now this forum is of course for discussing mod ideas, so I'll get to the point.

In both of those games there's a special feature unique to that series which I've never seen in any other game, EVER.

It enables you to control your unit directly. You would hold down the "ctrl" key and manouver with the arrow keys. You would still stay in the RTS style "birds eye view" but you could change the soldier's weapon, grenades, pick up ammo, put it in crouching and prone posistions, ect. Basicly this feature allowed you to control your soldier like in an FPS but from above so you could still see the whole battefield and plan ahead. You could switch from unit to unit and control them as desired then leave them to the AI for control once again.

Now what if the feature was implimented into your fantastic looking Overwatch mod?

You could take a strider over fences and through the streets of City 17. You could ram squads of rebels with an APC. You could accuratley snipe targets with the infamous combine sniper. The possibilites are absolutely endless.

This is an amazing feature to an amazing RTS series and I think your game would go far if you implimented it as well.

Thanks for your time.

P.S. Sorry if I've broken a rule or angered anyone by not putting this in the thread already provided and making my own.

[Outbreak]

As was talked about in the other thread, combine are going to die too quickly for you to want to take the time to command one soldier, besides the whole point of an RTS is to pull you out of the "me" mode and put you in to the collective 'us" mode. meaning you shouldn't care about the life of one guy, and your strategy should not hinge on one guy winning it for you, RTS games are about controlling attrition better than your opponent, and your not gonna get that done gallivanting around the map as an individual when you should be commanding an army. All in all it is an RTS AND FPS meaning if you want to control one guy play on the rebel side. I personally think that while it might be a fun little feature it will add no overall strategy or gameplay significance and should not be worried about.

Of course then again this may be a feature in game, how would anyone know until we play it.

[elite879]

Your post kinda confuses me because you start with "individual units will die too quickley" and goes to "one unit winning the game for you"

Anyway. What I meant is AI in games as most people know is rarely smarter than a human. I want to make it so, yes, you can still command whole armies but then take control of a unit and throw a grenade at a key point in the battle. Going on the "AI generaly sucks" thing, accuracy of AI units it always pretty low. In an FPS game you can crouch, lie down, fire in bursts ect since you control your own guy. In an RTS however units fire all over the dam place as freely as they want. If you were to take the unit into direct control though you could take out an RPG rebel right before he fires which would save your Strider.

The idea isn't to make it so one unit can take on hordes of Rebels single handedly but to provide a way to eliminate key units and critical times.

Also yes I did see a similar idea in the other thread but my idea is different as you can see, I hope....

[A1win]

There has been some discussion about giving more control over individual units. Some of it can add depth to the game, but it shouldn't be overdone either. If each individual unit could be made more efficient by controlling them directly, then the player who could control them the fastest would be better than the players who are slow at it. This is called micromanagement and it's an important factor in many RTS games. However, since Overwatch is not a pure RTS game, the intention is to keep the need for micromanagement to a minimum while not removing the fun of it completely.

[elite879]

hmmm

So basicly you're saying the idea is good but doesn't fit into this particular mod since the micromanagment required.

So lets say there's DOG coming up one road and a squad of rebels coming up another. I'd have to quickley select an RPG unit, direct fire him at DOG, release command of the unit and then select another group of combine soldier and command then to attack the rebel squad.
All that in the space of about 15 seconds, give or take.

I see why that would be hard for some people and I respect that I guess.

I just wanted the direct control function from my favourite RTS of all time into a mod combining my one of my favourite games in an FPS/RTS blend.

Now that I think about it. While I would find the task I said above pretty easy, other people might find it near impossible and would get overwelmed by the two unit types attacking from two sides.

Well thanks for reading about my idea anyway.

[Outbreak]

"Going on the "AI generaly sucks" thing, accuracy of AI units it always pretty low."

Well AI is as accurate as you make them, most of the stink in making AI is to make them behave realistically and make mistakes, not be a robot who performs perfectly every time. Yes I can see where throwing a grenade at a single rpg gus might be useful, but wouldn't it be better to focus a group of your guys fire on that one guy and allow them to choose how best to handle it rather than trying to somehow throw a grenade through a window while not being able to aim said grenade. In most rts games they will give you some control over units, such as in starcraft units have abilities you can trigger, but it is still up to the AI to decide what to do with the ability you triggered. The problem with having it the other way is that you cannot possibly micro manage a skill like that, you would have to see full load out of all of your troops, so that you would know who had a grenade for you to throw, and then you would HAVE to switch to an fps mode to throw the grenade due to the fact that you cannot aim a grenade being thrown in three dimensions using only two. On the other hand having the ability to control a designated unit under controlled circumstances could add a lot of fun to the game i.e. a finale type situation where you control a turret or something that the rebels must assault at a time where you have no other reinforcements. But allowing an rts commander the ability to take control of any npc at any time on the battlefield seems a bit overpowered to me. Leading is more about delegation than doing it yourself.

[A1win]

Every RTS game I know of allows the player to order units to individually attack targets of the player's choice. I wouldn't call it "taking direct control" of a unit, though I guess that phrase applies at least partially, but just selecting the unit and giving it an attack order. It's a very basic element of RTS gameplay. By too much micromanagement I was referring to more detailed things like giving the possibility of changing a unit's weapon or telling them where to throw grenades. I'm not saying things like that are out of the guestion, just that they need to be considered very carefully.

[elite879]

Outbreak, on 03 July 2010 - 11:28 AM, said:

The problem with having it the other way is that you cannot possibly micro manage a skill like that, you would have to see full load out of all of your troops, so that you would know who had a grenade for you to throw, and then you would HAVE to switch to an fps mode to throw the grenade due to the fact that you cannot aim a grenade being thrown in three dimensions using only two.

What do you mean by this? In MoW you can throw a grenade perfectley fine in the birds eye view of RTS and it will land where you aimed it at. As for seeing their entire loadout this could easily be displayed by selecting an individual unit and you can see how many grenades he has and how much ammo.

A1win, on 03 July 2010 - 11:33 AM, said:

Every RTS game I know of allows the player to order units to individually attack targets of the player's choice. I wouldn't call it "taking direct control" of a unit.

That's because that's not what I meant. What I MEANT was you would press the ctrl key then you can control the unit with your arrow keys and wherever your mouse points he does, pressing mouse 1 would fire his weapon, mouse 2 would switch to a grenade (or a manhack in CP's case)



Ok, take a look at this video I whipped up quickley in Men of War. It shows you how the direct control works and show how the hud is presented to show the unit's ammo, grenades and equipped weapon. I would of course like the Direct control implimented into the game and the as for the HUD, you can improve on that to make it unique but also server it's purpose of showing the unit's equipment.
http://www.xfire.com/video/2f8e70/

Sorry for my crappy voice, I was thinking of things to say on the spot and they sometimes came out wrong.

[Outbreak]

elite879, on 03 July 2010 - 02:17 PM, said:

What do you mean by this? In MoW you can throw a grenade perfectley fine in the birds eye view of RTS and it will land where you aimed it at.

you don't find that a little unfair?

You do realize that the resistance side is FPS right? I mean really if you want to control one guy just play the resistance side, I don't understand why it is such a huge deal to be able to control which way your guys are facing, except that you said it was in a really old game, so the lack of ai programming in that game may be why they let you do that. You can click on one guy I'm sure and just move him around, you should not have to worry about the facing of your men as even stock hl2 AI could turn and look at a threat.... I dont know but to me the ability to control a single person protracts from the feel that you are a commander, your not a platoon leader or a sergeant or a grunt, you are THE MAN, you call the shots, if they dont do what you want you can have them court marshaled and shot for treason, remember kids.... THE POWER IS YOURS!

[Tucker]

Outbreak, on 04 July 2010 - 06:18 PM, said:

you don't find that a little unfair?

You do realize that the resistance side is FPS right? I mean really if you want to control one guy just play the resistance side, I don't understand why it is such a huge deal to be able to control which way your guys are facing, except that you said it was in a really old game, so the lack of ai programming in that game may be why they let you do that. You can click on one guy I'm sure and just move him around, you should not have to worry about the facing of your men as even stock hl2 AI could turn and look at a threat.... I dont know but to me the ability to control a single person protracts from the feel that you are a commander, your not a platoon leader or a sergeant or a grunt, you are THE MAN, you call the shots, if they dont do what you want you can have them court marshaled and shot for treason, remember kids.... THE POWER IS YOURS!

You have a point...
Thing is, the AI programming (especially for Combine) is utter shit. Being able to control one unit in FPS mod would be a great help.

[Eric Fong]

If you want the AI of combine to throw a grenade right into the window, it is kind of hard, because different engine and coding.

Sorry for bad point and bad grammar, cheer.

[elite879]

Tucker, on 05 July 2010 - 12:06 AM, said:

Being able to control one unit in FPS mod would be a great help.

YOU'RE NOT LISTENING TO ME
/caps

I DO NOT want to be able to control the unit in FPS. The game will still be BIRDS EYE but you can control the unit with WASD, aiming the mouse to point where to shoot, using M1 to fire weapon, R to realod and M2 to throw a grenade. Basicly the controls will be the same as an FPS but the game will be the traditional birds eye view of RTS games. Also the direct control be activated with the ctrl key.

Outbreak, on 04 July 2010 - 06:18 PM, said:

you don't find that a little unfair?

You do realize that the resistance side is FPS right? I mean really if you want to control one guy just play the resistance side, I don't understand why it is such a huge deal to be able to control which way your guys are facing, except that you said it was in a really old game, so the lack of ai programming in that game may be why they let you do that. You can click on one guy I'm sure and just move him around, you should not have to worry about the facing of your men as even stock hl2 AI could turn and look at a threat.... I dont know but to me the ability to control a single person protracts from the feel that you are a commander, your not a platoon leader or a sergeant or a grunt, you are THE MAN, you call the shots, if they dont do what you want you can have them court marshaled and shot for treason, remember kids.... THE POWER IS YOURS!

(Sorry for large quoting btw)

I don't find it unfair at all, but that's just my opinion of course.

The idea of this is that you can gain a few seconds of stradgetic supperiority in an overwhelming situation. As show in the video I posted your guy will be killed but the outcome is better for you because you've managed to take out a suppirior unit.

YES your unit will be killed, and I know this. The idea isn't to roam around the map with one guy killing everyone, I don't want that at all, it would ruin the game infact. BUT my idea makes it so you can better control your units. NO you don't just make a unit face in a direction you can actualy choose where to make it shoot and then actualy shoot yourself. As far as I can tell there is a difference between controlling a unit ie: Pointing where to fire and then firing WHEN YOU WANT and what you said which was "Making your units face a threat" That's not the point of this feature.

[Tucker]

elite879, on 05 July 2010 - 11:18 AM, said:

YOU'RE NOT LISTENING TO ME
/caps

I DO NOT want to be able to control the unit in FPS.

I am listening to you. It's just a bad idea. You can't throw a grenade through a window in birds eye. And what if a rebel crouches and you're on a hill? That soldier is fucked, man. It's gotta be FPS.

[braddollar]

I'd think for a boss fight of some kind this would be pretty sweet, but for your basic units I highly doubt it would be necessary / used often. Most of your basic units will probably end up just being cannon fodder with you trying to overwhelm, by the time you get down to the nitty gritty of trying to control your unit, a player will have shot it in the face and will be moving on.

[elite879]

Tucker, on 05 July 2010 - 02:01 PM, said:

I am listening to you. It's just a bad idea. You can't throw a grenade through a window in birds eye. And what if a rebel crouches and you're on a hill? That soldier is fucked, man. It's gotta be FPS.

I just don't see what it is you're not understanding, I simply don't
In the game Men of War, which I even have a gameplay video of IN THIS THREAD manages to give you the ability to throw a grenade through a window in the bird eye view. All you do is spin the camera round to face the window, select the unit, direct control and just aim at the windows and press the mouse button and the grenade gets sent through the windows and kills any soldiers on that floor.
Why does that seem so impossible to you? I may be describing it wrong, if that's it, sorry.

Also, about the thing of a soldier being on a hill, being in birds eye would be better than first person because you can see if the rebel moves about. In first person the hill would block your view and the rebel can easily sneak round you and you'd have no idea. Plus you can just throw a grenade down and the rebel would either run out of cover giving you a chance to shoot or the grenade would kill him.

braddollar, on 05 July 2010 - 02:06 PM, said:

I'd think for a boss fight of some kind this would be pretty sweet, but for your basic units I highly doubt it would be necessary / used often. Most of your basic units will probably end up just being cannon fodder with you trying to overwhelm, by the time you get down to the nitty gritty of trying to control your unit, a player will have shot it in the face and will be moving on.

I know the units would die quickley. I've said this several time already in this thread. YES the unit WILL ALWAYS be cannon fodder whatever way you control it but the units can be MORE USEFUL cannon fodder with this feature.

LOOK AT THE VIDEO. The video link I put in the thread and I will also put here for convinience shows that even with this feature your unit i still easily killed BUT it give you the advantage of human intelligence which of course the AI doesn't have. YES the unit dies but in the process I destroy a much more valuable unit of the enemy's meaning even though my unit is dead, his is too and he loses overall.

The video which no one seems to have bothered watching
http://www.xfire.com/video/2f8e70/

[CCCPkiller]

I believe this HAS been discussed, but i really think only certain heroic/ more elite things should be able to be taken over, i mean, what use is the RTS feature with out having the ability to command all units, instead of just popping to a new unit, and calling for more, the only reason you would go into the RTS mode! but the elite units need to cost A LOT of resources to create....it just is better that way.

[elite879]

Yeah to be honest I just want to scrap this whole thread. I mean I've finally got it into my head after all this time that MoW is an RTT that gets rid of base building and resource production and makes it so you just have your units at the start of the mission and take them all to the end, maybe with a scripted reinforcment or two.

Overwatch of course will be an RTS which would mean direct control is much harder to use as you have to manage everything.

The idea wont work with an RTS, only an RTT

[CCCPkiller]

well elite, possibly this going to be C&C 4 (not as horrible though) that was an RTS, but it had no bases, maybe it can work like that?

[dsi1]

The last Company of Heroes expansion did direct control, click where you want your unit to (try to) shoot. I don't really see the need for it though.

[elite879]

Yeah I have the last company of heroes and was disgusted at the fact it was a direct duplicate of Direct control from MoW