35 replies to this topic

[DaFox]

AndY, on 15 July 2010 - 03:23 PM, said:

You can still use your keyboard with a radial menu.

Mmmm Then I would think that it may get confusing as to which one is what number.

So I think going with a linear menu right now would be best and then you can modify it later to make it look nicer etc.

[AndY]

DaFox, on 18 July 2010 - 06:11 PM, said:

Mmmm Then I would think that it may get confusing as to which one is what number.

So I think going with a linear menu right now would be best and then you can modify it later to make it look nicer etc.

Could also offer both options (and you select what you want in your Options menu).

[PixilatedPunk]

AndY, on 18 July 2010 - 06:14 PM, said:

Could also offer both options (and you select what you want in your Options menu).

That I think is a +1 idea.

[Ranma]

Radial is definitely the quickest way to give commands or responses. I just need to push a key and then click, rather than push 2 different keys fairly away from each other. Radial It's much better for fast paced games. Even in combat: hold a key for .5 seconds, click on "need backup" and then keep blasting. It takes me, at my fastest, at least a full second to use a linear menu (I ONLY use it, rarely in CS:CZ and always outside of combat)

AndY, on 18 July 2010 - 06:14 PM, said:

Could also offer both options (and you select what you want in your Options menu).

I pray for this. Linear is a hassle and I hardly EVER use it and I was holding my breath when I saw so many people choosing linear. Radial is so much easier as you'll only have to move 1 finger, where as linear you have to move 2.

But if you're going to make a Radial menu, you'll probably want to make it bigger and transparent, kind of like the ZP:S voice menu. The NS menu has small buttons and I screw up sometimes when trying to use it; it's not designed well enough to use in combat.

[PixilatedPunk]

Ranma, on 20 July 2010 - 04:40 PM, said:

Radial is definitely the quickest way to give commands or responses.

I disagree completely.

Ranma, on 20 July 2010 - 04:40 PM, said:

I just need to push a key and then click...

Clicking is the main issue I see. You should never have your mouse engaged in anything that will take away from your ability to see or shoot EVER! Even if it is only 0.5 seconds.

Ranma, on 20 July 2010 - 04:40 PM, said:

Linear is a hassle and I NEVER use it and I was holding my breath when I saw so many people choosing linear. Radial is so much easier as you'll only have to move 1 finger, where as linear you have to move 2.

I can do anything I need to do in game while using a linear menu including walking, running, strafing, shooting, looking, using a button or any other action all at the same time where a radial menu restricts the amount of things you can do. Personal preferences aside, it is a fact that a linear menu is more efficient than a radial menu regardless of whether or not is it best for you. This is why I think having both as an option is the best decision.

[Ranma]

PixilatedPunk, on 20 July 2010 - 04:53 PM, said:

Clicking is the main issue I see. You should never have your mouse engaged in anything that will take away from your ability to see or shoot EVER! Even if it is only 0.5 seconds.

Maybe, but I can't strafe to the left and push 7 at the same time.




I agree. You can use a linear menu, I can't. I have an easier time using my mouse you don't. An option would be best for all of us.

You kind of make me sound like an idiot when you call that a fact. If you don't mind, I'd like you to prove that statement first before you state it as a fact.

[PixilatedPunk]

It was not my intention to make you sound like an idiot and I apologize for you thinking this. A linear menu is more efficient, and this is a fact. This can be proven by the fact that a player cannot perform all required actions simultaneously using a radial menu when the selection method uses mouse1. In the event the player needs or wants to use the radial menu the player cannot shoot and look around. This is not efficient and one reason why I personally do not use the voice commands in Natural Selection as opposed to TF2. Radial is simply less efficient when a player is required to perform any other action simultaneously. Is this explanation more clear or should I find another way to describe this?

[A1win]

I almost never use any voice commands that are behind more than one button press. It just takes too much time from controlling my character. But I agree that having an option to choose between linear and radial menus would be the best solution for everyone who wants to use voice commands, and of course the they should be able to be bound separately to keys as well. Voice chat (using a microphone) is the most efficient way of communication in games but unfortunately it's not always possible for everyone.

[Ranma]

Not enough to the point where I agree, but you've said enough that I won't disagree. Nothing would come from discussing something as insignificant as "what is better", so why bother?

Besides, we've already agreed on the real issue; there's no need to go any deep than that.

[cheesydud]

Radial is probably best for when your menus have branching categories, such as in the Sourcemod Empires.
*Open Voice Menu* > Local menu or Squad menu or Support menu ... etc
Local menu would display choices such as: "Move up" or "Fall back" or "Taunt" or "Take Cover"
Support menu would display choices such as: "I need Air Support" or "I need Infantry..." or "I need Armor support" or "I need a transport"
etc

[Lt_Sherpa]

cheesydud, on 21 July 2010 - 04:47 PM, said:

Radial is probably best for when your menus have branching categories, such as in the Sourcemod Empires.
*Open Voice Menu* > Local menu or Squad menu or Support menu ... etc
Local menu would display choices such as: "Move up" or "Fall back" or "Taunt" or "Take Cover"
Support menu would display choices such as: "I need Air Support" or "I need Infantry..." or "I need Armor support" or "I need a transport"
etc

It makes sense, but it also has a weakness in that the player has to give up control of the mouse for a period of time before finding and communicating the message. The advantage of BF2's radial menu is that it's very quick and easy to use. The Project Reality mod also went to great lengths to extend and enhance that functionality. You lose control, but only for fraction of a second.

Edit:
I'd argue that the issue isn't necessarily whether or not it's linear or radial, but whether or not it's convoluted or intuitive.

[cheesydud]

Lt_Sherpa, on 21 July 2010 - 05:11 PM, said:

It makes sense, but it also has a weakness in that the player has to give up control of the mouse for a period of time before finding and communicating the message.
Edit:
I'd argue that the issue isn't necessarily whether or not it's linear or radial, but whether or not it's convoluted or intuitive.

To your first point: True, although if each option were given shortcuts such as in Empires and many other games (each category or command is assigned to WASD, or 12345...), familiar players would be still be able to breeze through the menu(s), significantly reducing the time consumed. However, this would still require more time than a simple linear menu.
To your second point: I agree completely. The arrangement of the menus and voice commands should definitely be well thought-out.

[Twitwi]

cheesydud, on 21 July 2010 - 04:47 PM, said:

Radial is probably best for when your menus have branching categories, such as in the Sourcemod Empires.

Well in that scenario, yes the radial menu is the best.

But since this is a RTT, it doesn't need very many commands.
I can do with just an incoming and an Sentry, (maybe also IT'S A TRAP!, but at the current state. no.)

[cheesydud]

Twitwi, on 22 July 2010 - 11:52 AM, said:

But since this is a RTT, it doesn't need very many commands.
I can do with just an incoming and an Sentry, (maybe also IT'S A TRAP!, but at the current state. no.)

I would have to agree. I think that a linear-style voice menu would probably suit Overwatch.

Linear-style menus are definitely less obscuring than radial menus. Usually, it only has to occupy a small region, which makes it less distracting/obscuring. Overall, it'd probably be simpler, too. Simplicity is usually a plus.

[Shryko]

2 menus of 5 commands, with the option of radial or linear... should cover all the needs for this mod, really.

I also think the really important voice commands should have their own key-binds, for those who are interested in speed/efficiency.

that said, if the menus are going to have the same key-bindings inside the menu, then, really... linear is better, due to what PixelatedPunk said.

if we're not gonna do the choice of either, then my vote would be 100% Linear. <.<

[AndY]

elite879, on 15 July 2010 - 01:28 PM, said:

So I was in the server on Overwatch earlier and we got into a discussion about voice commands. This I think would be quite a useful feature for Overwatch as I use it frequently in TF2.

Of course the downside is you may have to employ voice acting if you can't find good enough files, but here is what I was thinking

Z menu:-
1. Help - To let other people know you need help, Obvious, this would also appear as "Help!" in the chat.
2. Health - I heard you were adding the ability to heal other players so this would be useful. This would appear in chat as "Medic!"
3. Ammo - Maybe you can also add the feature to give people ammo? Like in Human Error - co-op. This would appear in chat as "Need Ammo!"
4. Go left! - Tell your team a better way to go.
5. Go right! - See above.
6. Console! - Tell your team to come to the console you're at, might drop this in favour of "help"
7. Health Charger - Tell your team there's a health charge nearby.
8. Ammo - Tell your team there's ammo crates, boxes or on the floor

X menu:-
1. Turret ahead! - Tell your team there's a turret.
2. Sniper! - Tell your team there's a combine sniper.
3. SMGs - Tell your team there's an SMG squad.
4. Shotgunners! - Tell your team there's a shotgun squad.
5. Manhacks - Shout the infamous "HAAAAX" to tell your team there's Manhacks.
6. Mortar - Tell your team there's either headcrab canisters or a mortar incoming.
7. Breaching - Tell your team a door is about to be blown open.
8. Trap - Tell your team the way they're going has a trap in it "ITSA TARP"

As for the C menu this can just comprise of random sound files from the rebels like in TF2, such as

C menu:-
1. Thoughts - Say what's on your mind "I can't remember the last time I had a shower"
2. Answers - Maybe with a bit of coding you can have this intergrate with thoughts for a suitbile response "I'm not even gonna tell you to shut up"
3. Go! Go! Go! - Tell your team to move their asses.
4. Shield - Tell your team to grab a riot shield
5. Incoming - Tell your team there's a grenade or maybe a massive squad of mixed troops making the commands in the X menu commands worthless.

I can't think of another 3 for the C menu. Maybe you guys can suggest something?

I've created a poll in this thread to figure out which of elite879's suggestions you all would use the most.

Once we have enough votes, we can implement a first menu with the top voted commands to test it out in-game.