15 replies to this topic

[Halsh]

This game has parallels with Zombie Master in terms of gameplay on several levels. On some of the larger maps of Zombie Master the sheer scale of activities you have to do become downright impossible, compounded by larger FPS player counts, due to being unable to be everywhere at once and the limited pre-scripted events you can set.

I suggest the RTS player be able to either randomly be alloted random players who opt-in on the RTS-side of things (to a cap, potentially scaled to the amount of FPS players so the ratio doesn't become out of whack) with a clear hierarchy, with the original RTS player at the top of command and anyone else on his/her team directly under their command. As this is being marketed as a FPS/RTS hybrid, only being able to do the RTS bit of the game once every couple games may drive off players, causing both sides to lose. This will allow those who RTS to do what they do best and potentially enrich the experience of both sides as the RTS player may not be overwhelmed by the task of having to be everywhere and do everything at the same time, allowing both the development of new strategies and tactics by the RTS players as a group as well as allowing veteran RTS gamers to ease newer players into the hotseat by acting as a back-seat player.

[dsi1]

This also has many, many similarities to Iron Grip, another (albeit dead, and relatively unknown) source mod. The only thing (that I can tell from what we've been given, which isn't much so far) that seems to separate them is the canon, which is only skin deep.

I'd love squad level play or such for a few other people on the RTS side, your commander gives you orders and you complete them using your squad to the best of your abilities. The few times I was able to play the RTS faction in Iron Grip I had to deal with a lot of things at once, and since it was hard to actually get that position in the first place, you didn't have much time to learn and would get stomped on by the easier to play and faster to learn FPS side.

[Halsh]

By squad level play, do you mean in FPS mode under command of the RTS player, or as a squad controlling various entities and working in unison towards the greater goal?

Although, that does open up the option of "if we have more people on the RTS team, does that open up the opportunity to directly, FPS view, control units, or should that be left to the AI?

[dsi1]

I was thinking either a less featured RTS mode or maybe a FPS thing, both would only have you able to use the assets assigned to you by the Overwatch though.

[Halsh]

I don't think that if the size of the overwatch team increases that he should have to micromanage their ability to use stuff as well as all the other stuff they'll be doing.

I saw the overwatch team as more like squads from Empires: the squad leader can kick players from the squad as well as accept/deny or send invites to/from people, with invites unable to be sent or received when the team is full or it's locked. Actually, I think that'd work better than the "random" thing I had in the first place.

[dsi1]

That starts to become more of an FPS though, I think each player should gain control of a squad from a less informed OW view, and being able to buy some of the smaller tier assets with their own money or something. (No requesting a Strider, but you could request a few Manhacks or a camera to rebuild inside a building, etc)

I think the commander should still be able to assign his assets though, give an APC to a squad leader to order about instead of having to pay heavy attention to it himself. Squad Leaders should also get less money or resource acquisition points or whatever we're using, only be able to request 'Squad Level' assets and support assets as well as reinforcing their squad to full capabilities. If they loose their entire squad give them a 30 second time-out to remake a (low level) squad that deducts a % of their remaining points. (so you never CAN'T get a squad but loose a good bit of points for it)

The commander should also be able to assign targets for the squad leaders. Clamp a building and amputate lifeforms inside, set up a defensive point with these tools I assign you, etc, etc. Using the same buttons he would to order NPCs around, he could order his SL's around as well.

[Halsh]

From the sound of it you want the Overwatch to consist of 1 RTS player assigning units for FPS players to lead against other FPS players, correct me if I'm wrong anywhere.

And by the squad referance before, was in regards to how it works: there's a single entity (in this case it'd be the RTS player assigned control) in complete control of his team, with the ability to do as they so desire. They want to play solo against everyone? Lock the team. You want this guy on your team to work with you? Invite them and hope they don't have "Deny invites" on. Feel like doing whatever? Leave the team open and go about your business killing people. Sure, you'd get jackasses who powertrip on their team but that can be sorted through your server not having jackasses on there.

[dsi1]

The teams still wouldn't be even in terms of player v player though, I'm saying like a few guys to take the heat off the commander, maybe 1/4th of the total playercount or something, possibly less. Also, I was thinking an RTS view would be better for the squad leaders, an FPS view could work but apparently a lot of dying is going to be done by the Combine, so it wouldn't really be fair for FPS players on the Combine team.

I was thinking, maybe:

• Overwatch (Commander): Full control over everything (except player squads)
  Overwatch Assets: APCs, Striders, (possibly) Base Building.
  Non-Player controlled squads.
  Giving orders/large equipment to Squad Leaders. (Players)
  
• Squad Leaders: Full control over their squad and assigned assets.
  Able to request smaller assets for their own use? Small amounts of scanners, cameras, maybe light barricades?

There would be less Squad Leaders than you would have units, requiring the commander to do his own things, Squad Leaders would just take up command of a few units to take the strain off the commander.

[Halsh]

Assuming a strider is a large asset to have, I'd rather assign someone to make sure it's alive and stays as such rather than fodder units I've been throwing at them since the beginning get a tiny bit better.

If we have a 1:3 ratio of Overwatch:Rebels, and a server population of 16 and no spectators, that's 4 Overwatch, 12 Rebels. So that's 3 people the Overwatch commander needs to assign and keep equipped, on top of anything else they may be doing. That doesn't sound as bad as I thought it was going to be, but assuming there're severpophax to increase it to 32, that's going to be 7 people the Overwatch commander needs to give stuff to, and if people are dieing all over the place it's going to be a giant pain in the ass to keep them all equipped, reducing it from an RTS to a "CLICK ALOT TO WIN, THINKING IS OVERRATED".

[A1win]

There are simpler ways to improve unit control than delegating tasks to other players. Remember that this is still Source, not an RTS game engine, which means it's not even possible to have hundreds of units (and certainly not the whole universe) running around in multiplayer. And even in RTS games, there's usually just one player controlling the forces of one army. The way the RTS gameplay is designed, one player is more than enough to manage all the required tasks.

[Halsh]

The topic title was more for dramatic effect rather than realism. With regards to wanting more people on the RTS team, it was a shot in the dark as we don't really know how anything works so a parallel was made to a similar game and the faults in that game.

There is 1 point I raised though that I feel needs to be addressed: if you're in it soley for the RTS experience, will there be any way to specify that and not opt-in for the FPS part, or will players be forced to participate in both aspects? In Zombie Master, pretty much the entire server has "Willing to ZM" on, so you have to cycle the entire server before it's your turn again; with a full server of 16 that's 15 games that could last 10 minutes each, or even longer, before it's your turn again.

[A1win]

Yeah, this is a fair concern considering what has been revealed so far. I was just trying to give some insight of how things are done — not downplaying your suggestion. :)

The number of players in Overwatch will be relatively low: with the current plans, the maximum number of players will remain 1vs7. Among other reasons, this should help with everyone willing to play in the RTS team have a fair chance at it. And of course, some kind of a player rotation for the RTS team will ensure everyone having their turn eventually.

[Halsh]

1v7 doesn't sound so bad as, pulling a number out of the air, if each game is 10 minutes that's "only" a 70 minute wait until you get your go again, assuming everyone wants to RTS. The main issue I foresee is that as a multiplayer game, people will generally find it more fun to play alongside more people, leading them to mod it to have higher population caps. Will that be addressed down the road, or will it be a case of "We designed it for 1v7 gameplay, feel free to increase the caps but don't turn around and complain about it."?

Having some way to see what other players are set as (RTS-only, RTS & FPS, FPS-only, Spectator) would help as well: seeing that there're only 2 people who want to RTS may make you stick around that server longer than if the entire server wants to RTS.

I do hope the RTS side is significantly more than the Zombie Master model, as that one is so simple that literally EVERYONE wants to do it, leading to giant waiting lines.

[braddollar]

I imagine not everybody will want to play the Overwatch side of things. I doubt it will appeal to everybody, and the difficulty of trying to beat 7 other determined players would be a turn off for some.

I'd imagine initially everybody will be excited to give the Overwatch a try, but the amount trying for it will go down a bit.

[Halsh]

It all depends on how complex it can get. I'm not saying make it complex to keep people out, that'll only lead to servers full of people FPSing without anyone wanting to actually do the RTS side. I'm just saying give it depth. In Zombie Master there isn't much you can do; spawn zombies and spawn more zombies at preset locations, or the weakest zombie for 10x the normal price anywhere the FPSers can't see. This doesn't leave much in the way of options.

[mr.bojangles]

eh why not just have an RTS player commands units, and sever like say 2 or 3 fps players in charge of a squad of ai. Have the RTS player in charge of the majority of ai and assign ai to the FPS players. the FPS players could give simple commands like go here or target that to keep things from being overly complicated. I'm not saying fifty units per player, i'm saying maybe 3 or 4, 5 at the most.